Wikcionário Discussão:Problemas espinhosos/Norueguês

Norwegian entries

Hello, and I'm sorry for writing in English. I contribute at various Wiktionaries and I speak a few languages. I am an administrator at the Norwegian Wiktionary, which is a joint effort by the users of both our two languages. In fact they are not two separate languages. They are the same but for historical and regional reasons there are two different grammar schools (or codifications, if you like). You may call them subsets. Since the number of Norwegian contributors is relatively low (it is after all a very small language compared to Portuguese or English) it felt like the right thing to do to move both projects forwards. However, it has created a lot of red tape to administrators like myself and to the code-writers.

My concern here today is that I would like the pt community to evaluate whether to do as the English, French, Spanish, German projects (and others), namely to separate between the two in a more relevant way. It may not be so straightforward to non-Norwegians why this matters, but the way it is currently handled makes it difficult to submit translations with grammar or conjugations for the two languages. In quite a few cases the lemmas themselves are spelled differently. So it doesn't make much sense for people who are native Norwegian speakers to submit translations without specifying if they cover nb or nn (or both, in which case they should be entered twice). And in other cases the lemmas might be the same but the conjugations differ considerably.

I therefore suggest that you designate the nb category to accommodate all articles in the Norwegian Bokmål language and the nn cat for Norwegian Nynorsk. Further, that - ideally- new articles would (after a possible consensus) have to be nb or nn but not no. I.e. to treat them as two separate languages. I, and others I am sure, will then take care of the articles and translations already submitted as "no" and correct as necessary. And if you implement what I have suggested it is going to be much faster and easier for me and others to copy translations from e.g. the English project.

My coding skills are not good enough to make sure all templates are changed accordingly. Some templates will have to be changed though, because the translation sections should reflect which of nb and nn an entry applies to. However, I am confident that among this community you do have some willing contributors who can and will alter the relevant templates and possibly also the relevant modules. @Malafaya has helped me out before but I am not sure if (s)he is still active.

The Norwegian articles and/or translations created so far could be put in a hidden category for Norwegian articles needing attention or something. I believe that is how they did it at the English project. New articles or definitions need to conform to either nb or nn but old ones would be corrected over time.

I have some other issues as well, but I shall wait to assess the reaction to this one before nagging you with more nitty-gritty. I am very positive to contributing here but I fear that unless you address the issue I have raised these entries would only exacerbate the problem.

A propósito, minhas habilidades em português, segundo o Duolingo, estão no nível 2. Mas escrevi o nível 1 na minha página do Babel para não exagerar :) Teodor (d • c) 21h45min de 2 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Hi Teodor605!

First of all welcome to the pt wiktionary, thanks for your interest in our project and thanks for opening a discussion on the situation of the Norwegian entries.

This subject has been discussed before here at the Esplanada. Please see this discussion from 2009 (sorry, in Portuguese only; I hope that Google translator will help you get most of what was decided at that time).

Apparently we did not follow exactly what was decided back then, we continued to use "Norueguês" to indicate nb and "Novo Norueguês" to indicate nn, so I'm not sure how valid are those decisions anymore.

I'm open to the ideas you expressed, I'm just a bit concerned, because over the years I've seen people come here with great ideas, start the work on those and then leave after ten percent of the work was done and leave thousands of entries to be fixed by the regular contributors. I really, really hope that you will stick around to tackle the work that has to be done. I'm not expecting you to do it all by yourself, of course, I'm ready to help (as I'm sure are others). I just don't want to have yet another entry in my list of things to do that are leftovers from great ideas left behind by well-meaning idealists.

Sorry, if I sound bitter... ;-(

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
11h02min de 3 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Hi again,

I understand your concerns. I am willing to contribute more than just over a few weeks. I have been contributing on the French, Italian and Spanish sites for many years already. But I would like the relevant templates to do the right thing so that my new entries are categorised as they should and without somebody being annoyed because I am not following the rules. Actually, I tend to stay away if the conflict levels rise... If you have someone here who can take a look at especially the French and English templates for nb, nn and no that person would not have to reinvent the wheel. As for the entries that exist already and should be modified I can see that there are currently around 1185 Norwegian nouns. That of course will take some time to change but you have to start somewhere. And I think there are ways to make sure we don't have to change all of them manually. Teodor (d • c) 11h37min de 4 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Hi Teodor605!

So, just to see if I understand you correctly:

• for all entries with nn, we would do nothing, they would stay as they are;
• for all entries with no, we would change them to nb, both in the translation section of Portuguese words that have a translation for Norwegian as for the entries in Norwegian themselves;
• change the definition of nb from Dano-norueguês to Norueguês (Bokmål) or Bokmål Norueguês (this one is preferable, I think, because our categories already use parentheses).

Anything else that we should put in the task list?

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
19h24min de 5 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's right. I would prefer if you opt for Norueguês (Bokmål and Norueguês (Nynorsk) since nb and nn could or would then be automatically sorted after each other in both the translation section and the articles. Many words exist in a bunch of languages, like sol, the sun.

As for the choice of linking a translated word, e.g. andorinha

::::* {{t|nb|svale|mf}} ::::* {{t|nn|svale|f}} ::::

I would recommend that they both link to the no wiktionary, even if the bracketed text could still show nb and nn, respectively. The reason for this is that the nn wiktionary is now a dead project. We decided a few years ago to merge the projects. There were simply too few contributors in the nn project to have any real progress. It was a pragmatic choice but it has given us a lot of extra work, especially in the grammer sections. If you let the nn translations link to the no project you would get a lot more nn hits than if you point directly to the nn project.

Visually I like the way it appears in the French project. There, whether one chooses to translate into “nb” or “nn” the bracket still shows “no”.

Norvégien (bokmål) : svale (no) masculin et féminin identiques

Norvégien (nynorsk) : svale (no) féminin

It seems to me that it would be worthwhile to add a hidden category “Norwegian entries that need quality control” ore something to all the articles that are changed from no to nb. Wiktionairy is rightly pointing out that most of these are really nb. However, some of them are also nn. If you add this hidden category and make sure I can access it I will go through the articles that go into the category and remove the category one by one. Or if I see the problem is nonexisting someone with better coding skills might remove all of them in one go.

I am not sure if it's possible here to see a category of articles that contain a “no”, “nb” and/or “nn” translation. If so then I could go through these too. In the French project they have this but I don't know how it was implemented. See “Catégorie:Traductions en norvégien (bokmål)” in the French project.

Lastly I would suggest you implement a feature – if possible – that stops new articles in the “no” language being accepted. The same goes for translations into “no”. Preferably contributors should be given a warning to use either nb or nn and perhaps a warning to “please add two separate entries” if the user is proficient in both languages. I wouldn't call it mandatory to deny “no” articles and translations but it would seriously improve the quality of new entries. Teodor (d • c) 11h02min de 6 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

I believe the category no (Norwegian) can simply be moved to nb (Norwegian Bokmål)—including no’s subcategories—as the majority of no’s entries pertain to Norwegian Bokmål.

Wiktionairy (Discussão) 20h44min de 5 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Dedicated discussion page

Hi Teodor605!

FYI1: I have brought our conversation to this dedicated page. The items on the Esplanada are archived each month, so I didn't want us to have to circumvent that.

FYI2: I got the ball rolling by creating a list of the tasks related to the Norwegian entries. Of course, I had to write it in Portuguese, for obvious reasons. If you want to add stuff there, you may do it in English and I'll translate after.

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
09h58min de 9 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Obrigado, Jorge. You summed up pretty well what I would have liked to change. Seems to me that like in the Norwegian project there aren't too many seasoned contributors here. So a consensus among a few isn't really worth the paper it was written on.

I am slowly going to add some (hopefully) meaningful translations and articles over the coming weeks, as I am in the process of learning Portuguese. If they are deemed to be not following the agreed upon guidelines they won't be too numerous to handle. It's just so that I can get going a bit and better understand how to contribute. Bear with me in the beginning and pinpoint how I can improve my entries, like I think to believe I am doing with newbies at the no/nb/nn project :) Teodor (d • c) 22h27min de 9 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Hi Teodor605!

Regarding the "a consensus among a few": I'm already happy that we have one other (Wiktionairy) willing to participate... ;-). We used to have a big community a decade or so ago, but now it's just a few here and there.

Don't worry about possible mistakes, we're very understanding with newbies that are willing to put the effort to learn the right way.

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
10h42min de 10 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. So can I start adding some translations into nb and nn respectively then? Helps me memorise when I am studying a language. Teodor (d • c) 15h30min de 10 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Hi Teodor605!

Yes, you may go ahead with your work. Thanks.

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
00h54min de 12 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Category for Norwegian entries that need quality control

Hi Teodor605!

FYI: I have just created the following category: Categoria:!Entrada a refazer (Norueguês Bokmål).

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
20h01min de 14 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Yes. Look at bilbombe now. I gave it the right gender for Danish as well as nb and nn. I think all entries classified as nb should go in the category Substantivo (Norueguês Bokmål). Currently they go in the cat Substantivo (Norueguês Bokmål). Then there is also the cat called Substantivo (Norueguês Bokmål). These are the articles that have =Norueguês Bokmål= in the header. If you want me to I could go through all of these and change into ={{-nb-}}= and also ={{-nn-}}= if the article is both. When this cat is empty it should then be deleted I think ;) Teodor (d • c) 08h08min de 15 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)

Hi Teodor605!

Concordo! I agree with everything you said.

--Valdir Jorge  ^fala!
10h00min de 16 de agosto de 2022 (UTC)